iFly GPS Forum

Nothing like "progress"

Dear Anne,

OK, my flak jacket is on as I expect to take some heavy fire on this one...despite all the wonderful things people say about adsb.

I'm in your camp on this one WRT adsb, Anne. I do not think adsb is the panacea it is being touted to be. In 10 years, there will be something better and we will be stuck with yet another expensive legacy system...anyone remember the rollout for the "incredible microwave landing system"? Well, this reminds me of it!

Not so sure I like the idea of an agency making up rules (administrative law) that we never voted on to deny (or tax) the airspace that is ours as US citizens. Can you imagine the outrage if such a device was forced upon every automobile user at $5,000 each to install?

I am definitely sure I do not like the way the technology was forced upon us - basically a "you figure it out" policy that is somewhat confusing and I dare say is an over-reach in terms of how much airspace it grabbed from us. I will be basically "shut down" when 2020 comes as I am in-between DC, Baltimore, Philly, NYC and Pittsburgh...boxed in!

I do not think the agency really considered the COST to most GA users, which is why there has been an underwhelming response to install it, even after the so-called $500 rebate. (It costs about that much to fly the sortie you need to validate it)  It is still around $5,000 to install and get validated when you throw in avionics labor, re-wiring, updated transponders, etc. For folks like me with $15,000 aircraft, it is borderline insanity to put THAT much into a plane with such little commerical value.

The privacy issue disturbs me as well. I have nothing to hide, but...does everyone really need to know when and where I am flying? Do we do that with other modes of transport? I am hoping the "privacy button" on many new systems becomes more ubiquitous. Again, would automobile users stand for this?

The loopholes also leave a lot to be desired and undermine the alleged 'safety' of using adsb. So, I have had it for two weeks and have had a very close call with the glider AND a piper cub with no electrics inside a Mode C veil where a transponder is typically required (but not for all)....just goes to show you STILL have to keep your head outside in VMC flying VFR. This is not an anti-collision device...it merely gives you a bit more SA.

And then there is the user fee issue...how very convenient it would be for an agency to simply "mail you the bill" every time you fly based on your adsb registration number.  You would pay for your flying track and use of airspace, navigational aids, and/or airports of all sizes...I can see it coming, as it is already that way in Europe where I used to live (and had to give up GA flying).

And then there is the TSO/ Non-TSO issue. So, an RV-10 flying IFR in IMC can have a non-TSO'd adsb and be legal, but a Cessna 150 flying VFR in VMC must have a TSO'd adsb at 2 to 3 times the cost....hmmm.  If the agency were so concerned about safety, why not rapidly certify NON-TSO'd adsb systems to get more planes equipped? Not sure I follow the logic...willing to admit I am missing something here, but I just do not get that part.

So, here many of us stand in mid-2017 already behind the curve for the 2020 edict.

We do not have avionics appointments for installation due to the $$$ and uncertainty of the systems, and we are already being told (in my area) you cannot get an appointment to have it installed as they are booked solid with larger commercial planes ahead of us little guys.  

Yep, the prices are (allegedly) coming down, but not nearly enough. I will be on the outside looking in come 2020...flying in tight circles around all the blocked-off airspace that used to be home to many small airports and turf fields, which will most-likely go belly-up as small-time flyers like me can no longer support them with fuel purchases, the lifeblood of small privately owned but open to the public airports. Did the agency consider these airports during the rule-making? Not so sure I see any evidence of it.

Sorry for my griping, but many of us have to give up lots of other things in life to be able to fly, and this latest $5,000 hit is just really painful, especially when many of us feel it does not really do THAT much for us.

I probably stand in the mostly silent minority on this one, but I do think the agency could have

1. Scaled BACK on the amount of airspace they grabbed.

2. Eased up on the rules on TSO equipment for non-commercial use.

3. Helped a lot more with the R+D to get the cost of these boxes down to a couple of hundred bucks.

OK, ready to take fire! 

Warm Regards, Mike Marra, N94, Carlisle, PA

Actually, for a post that potentially seemed to start out to be a get-your-guns anti-government diatribe, I think you bring up very good points in a well-written piece.  Just for background: I'm not a libertarian, and I'm not a conspiritarian (just made that word up -- copyright), and I've already put ADS-B in & out in both my fixed-wings (one an Experimental LSA, one an Experimental GA). 

I especially agree with you about the privacy issues, which do concern me.  I'm also concerned that what I've installed will be obsolete in 10 years, as you suggested.

And if I was flying a type-certified aircraft, which it sounds like you are, I'd be plenty mad that guys like me get to install what is for all intents and purposes the exact same hardware for much less cost (both puchase price, and installation).  In fact, I did an owner-assist install in one plane and it only costs me $600, and I did the installation myself in the other.  I also agree that it's somewhat oversold in regards to traffic awareness and probably weather too.

The part I mildly disagree with is where you say that the $500 rebate is eaten up in the validation sortie -- no, it really isn't.  You just need to fly 30+ minutes in ADS-B airspace to do the checkout (and the time to get there and back).  For me, it was flying about 20 miles there and back to get inside a Mode C veil, plus the 30 minutes in there -- so call it an hour of flying. Nowhere near $500 cost.  Even if you don't have a class B nearby (for that airspace or just the veil), or a Class C (you can validate inside their airspace or actually between their top and 10,000 feet), you can always just fly up to above 10,000 feet anywhere and do your validation there.

Also, I'm unclear about what you mean about the airspace they grabbed.  The places that Mode C is required are the places where ADS-B is now required, with the intention that Mode C eventually goes away.

To sum up: it doesn't make me as overall worried as you seem to be, or as upset with the cost (as explained above), and I think I understand the rationale for implementing it, but nonetheless your points and points of view have validity in my opinion.  I think you should send it in as an editorial to the AOPA Pilot and the EAA Sport Aviation magazines.