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HomeHomeDiscussionsDiscussionsiFly General Di...iFly General Di...ATC and iFly disparity in location?  Part DeuxATC and iFly disparity in location? Part Deux
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6/17/2014 5:35 PM
 

Walter Boyd wrote, in part:``The iFly airspaces are defined by a collection of lat/lon waypoints which describe the shape. ....... for our alerting. I consider those definitions more accurate than the Sectionals & Tacs; those charts were originally designed for visual, non precise navigation - so the chart designers would commonly move things around to make room for labels and icons. But they seem to be getting better with each cycle.``

 

Hi Walter,

I don`t doubt the accuracy of what you report, but FWIW, I`m certain the difference, if any, between the accuracy of the depiction on Vector vs. Sectional view (in the case of the class-D airspace boundary at the MFR airspace where I did the inflight disparity experiments) is clearly _not_ sufficient to explain the approx 0.75 consistant nautical mile disparity that both I and ATC noticed between where iFly was telling me I was relative to their perimeter and where ATC was seeing.

Confirming IMO that is this: I would flip between Sectional view and Vector view the two views agreed as to where the airspace boundary was as precisely as is possible to read an ifly screen. They both show the perimeter at 4.3 nautical miles from the center of of the airport (which happens to be right at 5 statute miles.)

On the other hand, in the case of the disparity at MFR is clear that it can be fully accounted for by iFly`s sectional and vector views (and presumably the FAA) showing the perimeter at 5 statute miles and ATC believing/using 5 nautical miles as their perimeter. All the findings in the experiment are 100% consisent with that.

At the risk of repeating what I imply above: I`d say don`t count on switching to using vector view to get you and ATC to agree when you`ve entered their airspace, especially around class-D where there seems to be some confusion on part of some controllers about whether they should be looking out 4.3 nautical miles (as they do at KLMT per my talks with ATC) or are looking out 5 nautical miles.

A remaining question to me is this: ``How common might it be for a class-D ATC to be using 5 nautical miles as its perimeter radius while the sectional and vector on iFly (and presumably other GPS) is showing 4.3?

Those of you often fly near class D, it would be interesting, at least to me if you`d be willing to do some experiments and report back here: Set iFly to route you to that airport as a waypoint or destination(so iFly`s digital distance estimate to waypoint tells you pretty accuractly how far you are from the airport center) then fly to the perimeter as shown on moving map (sectional and/or sector display) and note what iFly reports as you distance. If ATC isn`t to busy ask them what distance they show you at AND ask if they show you inside our outside their perimeter. If you want to do this without incurring on their airspace (probably prudent) remember you can fly their perimeter 1000 feet (or whatever) above their airspace.

Alex

 
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6/17/2014 5:47 PM
 

.......

 
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6/17/2014 8:00 PM
 

From the FAA AIM (Airman's Information Manual) dated April 3, 2014:

I was taught (years ago) that Class-D airspace was 5 statute miles in radius but apparently that has changed now, it can be different for every airport. I would hope the charts would show it correctly but it seems we can't depend on that or maybe they lag behind on updates.

 
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6/17/2014 9:09 PM
 

My posted information came from a supervisor at an FSDO. If they got it wrong, we are all in trouble. Btw, he also found the info in the AIM, but when I asked for FAR or a Title USC/CFR reference, none was provided.

 
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6/18/2014 9:47 AM
 

Guys, this thread is really dumb. The question of airspace definition is a factual question, not one of "opinion." Also, the "FS" is "FSDO" stands for Flight Standards. These guys are not directly involved with airspace, so it is not surprising that they would not have the information at hand. It is the ATC organization that has the information, and as I reported in my post to the original thread yesterday morning (10:50AM) it is the ATC organization that gave it to me.

Since (apparently) you have not read the post (10:52AM) that I pointed you to in this thread I will give you the link here as well: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/1022106

To summarize, airspace is defined in nautical miles and every airspace is individually defined. The document is 1500 pages. No amount of speculation, accurately or inaccurately remembered training, or flying around in circles will change this. As to whether there are any towers that don't know what there airspace is, I think it is highly unlikely. Should you find one, call the tower and ask to speak to the "Quality Control" person or the tower manager. But you better have your facts straight.

 
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